|
|
Editors' Roundtable: Physicality 101, Making An Impression
Ryan Shawcross hijacks the Roundtable conversation, but a few thoughts on USA players are also shared among the editors.
Mar 2, 2010 1:52:00 PM
Goal.com
Andrea Canales: Is the English Premier League too violent?
Shane Evans: Nope. It's a man's game and is most definitely a contact sport.
Luis Bueno: I agree. Injuries happen, and I don't think players are necessarily taking hacks at each other every week. Not to say there aren't dirty plays, but I don't think that's what characterizes the league.
Zac Lee Rigg: Too violent? There are hardly cases of assault. Too physical maybe, insomuch as physicality is appreciated over tactics.
Noah Davis: I think when you look at the players' reactions to the Ryan Shawcross incident, where he broke Aaron Ramsey's leg, you realize how shaken up they all were. There wasn't any intent there. It's just the natural result of world-class athletes and a burning desire to win.
Allen Ramsey: Injuries are part of the game. If you've played enough, you've been on both ends of bad tackles, it just happens.
Canales: Ugh, fine, I'll be the girl and say that it's sad to see skilled teams knocked around the field and it's dangerous. Players playing recklessly isn't just physical - it crosses a line.
Evans: It was a 50-50 challenge. Could have gone either way. It just so happens that Shawcross is 6'5".
Canales: There's a 50-50 challenge like the Landon Donovan/Ashley Cole one, where Cole just had his ankle in a weird position. But Shawcross was coming in at speed, with his full weight. A full head of steam on a 50-50 challenge where someone has his leg out IS reckless. Put aside intent, that's way too risky.
Evans: I disagree. He was going for the ball the way he was taught how.
Bueno: I wouldn't say that's a 50-50 challenge. There are dozens upon dozens of 50-50 challenges every game, and you don't see injuries like that happen that often.
Ramsey: Maybe, but it happens all the time without anyone getting a leg broken.
Bueno: Exactly. So what made this result in a horrendous broken leg? Because it was bit of a dirty tackle, not just a 50-50 challenge gone awry.
Ramsey: I think what made it a broken leg was the timing of it. You get there late, the other guy is committed and has his leg in already. Ramsey just happened to beat Shawcross to the ball and have his foot planted. He's stagnant and can't take the hit in that position.
Canales: So it's just a coincidence that Shawcross has broken legs in the past?
Evans: Yeah. He's a center back in the most physical league in the world. That stuff happens.
Ramsey: I've hurt people in games. Not from bad tackles, just because they were in a bad spot. One leg, one arm.
Rigg: Next question: Is Allen's amateur league too physical?
Ramsey: It was in college.
Canales: How many legs have you broken where the tib and fib both snapped?
Ramsey: Obviously it's hard to deal with, and I've never seen it that bad, but things happen.
Canales: I guess this topic we'll have to disagree on. Players, in my book, need to take into account consequences of actions. You can be sorry all you want, but coming in that hard on a ball that the other person is a bit closer, is a recipe for disaster.
Ramsey: And I'd say that you get paid to play your best/hardest and injury risks are part of that deal.
Evans: Honestly, thinking about consequences is not Shawcross' problem. Winning the match is.
Bueno: Injury risks is one thing but you don't expect to get your leg shattered like that.
Canales: Yeah, I don't buy the win at any price gambit. The game should be bigger than that. That's why it has rules in the first place.
Evans: He did nothing illegal. He was sent off for the injury. The referee even admitted that.
Canales: I think the ref took into account that his tackle was dangerous. But it's another thing that goes back to whether or not the refs are ever going to get help in making calls. I mean, we just watched the Olympics, where figure skating judges reviewed in slow-mo tiny details of takeoff and landings. And one speed-skating guy was way ahead, about to win a gold, and went into the wrong lane and lost on a technicality. Details do matter in other sports and yet in soccer, the free flow rules and one set of eyes is expected to judge it all. And that set of eyes is conditioned by culture - the English league gets away with stuff that would never be allowed elsewhere. All part of it's "We're so physical, physical!' rep.
Davis: But isn't that part of the charm? Perhaps not in this situation, but that's just one example in a league of acceptable challenges and exciting matches.
Canales: It depends if you're a fan of Arsenal's soccer, or of Stokes, I guess.
Evans: And if a team like Stoke starts going into challenge half-heartedly and not running for balls, etc, they get relegated. They don't have the luxury of supreme talent to keep them afloat. They rely on work ethic and determination.
Davis: Take out the physicality and where's the EPL? Ligue 1? It's certainly not the best league in the world.
Evans: Easy, Noah.
Ramsey: I don't think you can take out the physicality and keep the same speed of play up. The speed of the game leads to crunching tackles.
Canales: So physicality is the great EPL leveler? MLS has the salary cap for parity, the EPL has thuggish tackles? That's not a great precedent.
Ramsey: MLS has more than its share of thuggish tackles. Even with the salary cap.
Bueno: True, and yet no terrible injuries like that, that I can think of off hand.
Canales: Broken legs, yes, but none that snapped with the skin all that held the leg together.
Ramsey: That's because it's a freak injury!
Canales: To the same freaking team? In the span of what, a few years?
Ramsey: Unlucky. Don't know what else to say.
Evans: Arsene pampers his kids too much.
Canales: That's crazy. Arsene's kids can play, and those teams with players who can't, try to tackle the stuffing out of them. How is that fair?
Evans: I'm just playing devil's advocate...but Arsenal do have a long list of injuries, which is longer than most.
Ramsey: See, and I don't agree with that either. It's just a bad run of luck. The softness or toughness of a player has nothing to do with a broken leg.
Canales: No team can be that unlucky. The truth is, they're targeted.
Ramsey: Then why don't United's players get hurt? Why hasn't Nani been broken? It's just the luck of the draw. Every team has injuries, some are worse than others. The best players will always be the most fouled.
Evans: This is not some big conspiracy against Arsenal. Giggs just broke his hand.
Rigg: Torres and Gerrard have missed good chunks of the season. Are they targeted?
Canales: I'm not suggesting the other clubs had some big meeting and said, "Let's kick Arsenal." I'm saying that's what happens in the EPL when an unskilled team can't keep up.
Ramsey: It happens in every league I think. The guys in the EPL are just big and fast, so it leads to this kind of situation.
Canales: But only the EPL is so designed to encourage it. Other leagues have big and fast guys, but the refs keep them in check more.
Ramsey: I'll give you that. They let it go more.
Canales: At some point, fans will have to decide which they value more. More pretty passes or crunching tackles - because if the tackles don't get reined in, more of those crunches will be bones.
Evans: I think it's more about style than keeping them in check. It's not like the EPL has unruly brutes running around who can't be contained. It's just how the game is played.
Canales: I guess this turned into a one-topic roundtable, but really quick, who on the USA team has to most to gain by playing well against the Netherlands?
Davis: Beasley. It's a chance for him to show he's back against one of the best teams in the world. We already know -- and so does Bob Bradley -- what he can do when he's playing well, but it's been a while since he's done so on this level.
Bueno: Right club, wrong player. Maurice Edu needs to show some things as well as Beasley but Edu doesn't have the experience Beasley has. Beasley just needs to maintain his level and I think he's good, but Edu needs to play well against the Netherlands to maintain his chances.
Ramsey: Mo Edu. He's got a lot to show, but could be a big part of the plan going into the World Cup. But I think he needs to show out on Wednesday.
Rigg: I'd say Stu Holden has a starting spot to gain in this game, which is more than anyone besides maybe Edu.
Davis: Beasley can make a case for a starting spot as well.
Canales: Is anyone just trying to make the roster?
Davis: I'd say Goodson's almost a lock, but can make it official on Wednesday. I'll be interested to see what Robbie Findley and especially Eddie Johnson can show.
Become a fan of Goal.com USA's Facebook fan page for all the latest news and insight into everything the related to the beautiful game
Shane Evans: Nope. It's a man's game and is most definitely a contact sport.
Luis Bueno: I agree. Injuries happen, and I don't think players are necessarily taking hacks at each other every week. Not to say there aren't dirty plays, but I don't think that's what characterizes the league.
Zac Lee Rigg: Too violent? There are hardly cases of assault. Too physical maybe, insomuch as physicality is appreciated over tactics.
Noah Davis: I think when you look at the players' reactions to the Ryan Shawcross incident, where he broke Aaron Ramsey's leg, you realize how shaken up they all were. There wasn't any intent there. It's just the natural result of world-class athletes and a burning desire to win.
Allen Ramsey: Injuries are part of the game. If you've played enough, you've been on both ends of bad tackles, it just happens.
Canales: Ugh, fine, I'll be the girl and say that it's sad to see skilled teams knocked around the field and it's dangerous. Players playing recklessly isn't just physical - it crosses a line.
Evans: It was a 50-50 challenge. Could have gone either way. It just so happens that Shawcross is 6'5".
Canales: There's a 50-50 challenge like the Landon Donovan/Ashley Cole one, where Cole just had his ankle in a weird position. But Shawcross was coming in at speed, with his full weight. A full head of steam on a 50-50 challenge where someone has his leg out IS reckless. Put aside intent, that's way too risky.
Evans: I disagree. He was going for the ball the way he was taught how.
Bueno: I wouldn't say that's a 50-50 challenge. There are dozens upon dozens of 50-50 challenges every game, and you don't see injuries like that happen that often.
Ramsey: Maybe, but it happens all the time without anyone getting a leg broken.
Bueno: Exactly. So what made this result in a horrendous broken leg? Because it was bit of a dirty tackle, not just a 50-50 challenge gone awry.
Ramsey: I think what made it a broken leg was the timing of it. You get there late, the other guy is committed and has his leg in already. Ramsey just happened to beat Shawcross to the ball and have his foot planted. He's stagnant and can't take the hit in that position.
Canales: So it's just a coincidence that Shawcross has broken legs in the past?
Evans: Yeah. He's a center back in the most physical league in the world. That stuff happens.
Ramsey: I've hurt people in games. Not from bad tackles, just because they were in a bad spot. One leg, one arm.
Rigg: Next question: Is Allen's amateur league too physical?
Ramsey: It was in college.
Canales: How many legs have you broken where the tib and fib both snapped?
Ramsey: Obviously it's hard to deal with, and I've never seen it that bad, but things happen.
Canales: I guess this topic we'll have to disagree on. Players, in my book, need to take into account consequences of actions. You can be sorry all you want, but coming in that hard on a ball that the other person is a bit closer, is a recipe for disaster.
Ramsey: And I'd say that you get paid to play your best/hardest and injury risks are part of that deal.
Evans: Honestly, thinking about consequences is not Shawcross' problem. Winning the match is.
Bueno: Injury risks is one thing but you don't expect to get your leg shattered like that.
Canales: Yeah, I don't buy the win at any price gambit. The game should be bigger than that. That's why it has rules in the first place.
Evans: He did nothing illegal. He was sent off for the injury. The referee even admitted that.
Canales: I think the ref took into account that his tackle was dangerous. But it's another thing that goes back to whether or not the refs are ever going to get help in making calls. I mean, we just watched the Olympics, where figure skating judges reviewed in slow-mo tiny details of takeoff and landings. And one speed-skating guy was way ahead, about to win a gold, and went into the wrong lane and lost on a technicality. Details do matter in other sports and yet in soccer, the free flow rules and one set of eyes is expected to judge it all. And that set of eyes is conditioned by culture - the English league gets away with stuff that would never be allowed elsewhere. All part of it's "We're so physical, physical!' rep.
Davis: But isn't that part of the charm? Perhaps not in this situation, but that's just one example in a league of acceptable challenges and exciting matches.
Canales: It depends if you're a fan of Arsenal's soccer, or of Stokes, I guess.
Evans: And if a team like Stoke starts going into challenge half-heartedly and not running for balls, etc, they get relegated. They don't have the luxury of supreme talent to keep them afloat. They rely on work ethic and determination.
Davis: Take out the physicality and where's the EPL? Ligue 1? It's certainly not the best league in the world.
Evans: Easy, Noah.
Ramsey: I don't think you can take out the physicality and keep the same speed of play up. The speed of the game leads to crunching tackles.
Canales: So physicality is the great EPL leveler? MLS has the salary cap for parity, the EPL has thuggish tackles? That's not a great precedent.
Ramsey: MLS has more than its share of thuggish tackles. Even with the salary cap.
Bueno: True, and yet no terrible injuries like that, that I can think of off hand.
Canales: Broken legs, yes, but none that snapped with the skin all that held the leg together.
Ramsey: That's because it's a freak injury!
Canales: To the same freaking team? In the span of what, a few years?
Ramsey: Unlucky. Don't know what else to say.
Evans: Arsene pampers his kids too much.
Canales: That's crazy. Arsene's kids can play, and those teams with players who can't, try to tackle the stuffing out of them. How is that fair?
Evans: I'm just playing devil's advocate...but Arsenal do have a long list of injuries, which is longer than most.
Ramsey: See, and I don't agree with that either. It's just a bad run of luck. The softness or toughness of a player has nothing to do with a broken leg.
Canales: No team can be that unlucky. The truth is, they're targeted.
Ramsey: Then why don't United's players get hurt? Why hasn't Nani been broken? It's just the luck of the draw. Every team has injuries, some are worse than others. The best players will always be the most fouled.
Evans: This is not some big conspiracy against Arsenal. Giggs just broke his hand.
Rigg: Torres and Gerrard have missed good chunks of the season. Are they targeted?
Canales: I'm not suggesting the other clubs had some big meeting and said, "Let's kick Arsenal." I'm saying that's what happens in the EPL when an unskilled team can't keep up.
Ramsey: It happens in every league I think. The guys in the EPL are just big and fast, so it leads to this kind of situation.
Canales: But only the EPL is so designed to encourage it. Other leagues have big and fast guys, but the refs keep them in check more.
Ramsey: I'll give you that. They let it go more.
Canales: At some point, fans will have to decide which they value more. More pretty passes or crunching tackles - because if the tackles don't get reined in, more of those crunches will be bones.
Evans: I think it's more about style than keeping them in check. It's not like the EPL has unruly brutes running around who can't be contained. It's just how the game is played.
Canales: I guess this turned into a one-topic roundtable, but really quick, who on the USA team has to most to gain by playing well against the Netherlands?
Davis: Beasley. It's a chance for him to show he's back against one of the best teams in the world. We already know -- and so does Bob Bradley -- what he can do when he's playing well, but it's been a while since he's done so on this level.
Bueno: Right club, wrong player. Maurice Edu needs to show some things as well as Beasley but Edu doesn't have the experience Beasley has. Beasley just needs to maintain his level and I think he's good, but Edu needs to play well against the Netherlands to maintain his chances.
Ramsey: Mo Edu. He's got a lot to show, but could be a big part of the plan going into the World Cup. But I think he needs to show out on Wednesday.
Rigg: I'd say Stu Holden has a starting spot to gain in this game, which is more than anyone besides maybe Edu.
Davis: Beasley can make a case for a starting spot as well.
Canales: Is anyone just trying to make the roster?
Davis: I'd say Goodson's almost a lock, but can make it official on Wednesday. I'll be interested to see what Robbie Findley and especially Eddie Johnson can show.
The Editors' Roundtable runs every week on Goal.com
Become a fan of Goal.com USA's Facebook fan page for all the latest news and insight into everything the related to the beautiful game
Inside Goal.Com
-
EURO 2012: Cristiano Ronaldo, Xavi and Van Persie named in Goal.com's dream team XI
Goal.com put together its dream team for this summer's European Championship in Poland and Ukraine
-
RIGG: Anelka struggling against the current in Shanghai
Nicolas Anelka went against the grain when he moved to Shanghai. Now he's finding that coaching and gelling tactically is like swimming against the tide.
-
ROGERS: Bradley should command a bidding war among Serie A teams
Chievo is currently shopping the American midfielder and several Italian clubs have shown interest.
-
ISOLA: Neymar-led Brazil should be considered the 2014 WC favorite
Neymar was brilliant as Brazil easily handled the United States with early World Cup preparations officially underway.
-
LATHAM: Mexico using summer friendlies to build depth
With World Cup qualifying to begin in June, Mexico is using three U.S.-hosted friendlies to build squad depth.